Interview with Elizabeth Ellen - 2021
Interview #5 (short stories, autobiographical fiction, transgressive fiction, plays)
Elizabeth Ellen is the author of five books, most recently Her Lesser Work and Exit, Carefully. She is founder and editor of Short Flight/Long Drive Books. Her writing has been published in Joyland, FENCE, New York Tyrant, and Harper's Magazine.
Randal Eldon Greene: Hello, Elizabeth Ellen,
I would like to start off talking about your collection, Fast Machine. Now these stories are autofiction, are they not? There are so many repetitions of scenes, facts, and characters—each building into its own unique story—that it’s hard to read it without believing this is a collection of very personal stories.
Elizabeth Ellen: Hi, Randal!
I would say I am suspicious of the term autofiction, specifically as it is applied to writing by women. I see many novels and stories authored by women referred to as autofiction while novels/stories written by men are referred to as "autobiographical fiction." To me, the difference implies a lack of artistry on the part of women; AUTOfiction implies jotting down words as they pop into your head without consideration of or for artistry. AUTOfiction brings to mind writing whimsically in one's diary. Vomiting on the page. Perhaps I am too sensitive re the meaning of words. At any rate, I did not know the term autofiction when writing the stories in Fast Machine. But, would one apply the term autofiction to Hemingway? Fitzgerald? Baldwin? It could be argued they are repetitious in themes, characters, "facts." What is a "fact" in fiction? Are not all stories personal? To the author? American Psycho, while perhaps not correlating to the 'facts' of the author's life (though in many ways it does), feels highly personal (to the author). And I have heard him, Bret Easton Ellis, say that Patrick Bateman was, in part, him. So I think as readers we need to be mindful and careful in making any assumptions regarding the author's life. Also, they are usually just irrelevant. Whether something is real or a 'fact' or not—in my mind—is irrelevant. The only relevant thing being: is this interesting to read? Am I holding your interest, as a reader? Of course, one of the great joys of reading is trying to unfold the mystery, to separate and join the reality of the author with the fantasy of his/her work. If there is no mystery, there, there is no interest. All of which is a way to circle back to your question of autofiction and my coy response: I don't know, what do you think?
Randal Eldon Greene: I didn't realize the two terms weren't referring to the same thing (autofiction, I assumed was a shortened and easier-to-type version of autobiographical fiction). I think that some writers do draw heavily on their own lives to create narratives. Other writers use their own lives in less subtle ways, taking their experiences into account without using the actual stories of their lives. To me, the closer a story is to actual events in one's life, the closer it is to autobiographical fiction (I'm typing the non-short word, since it's evidently more accurate to what I'm referring to). Look Homeward Angel is a good example of what I consider autobiographical fiction, where an author mines one's life stories for their book. An even better example is Tim O'Brien's The Things They Carried. Your collection reminds me of his wonderful book in its form, especially its character building with repetition throughout the stories.
But to answer your coy question: I don't particularly care either way. In fact, I hate it when a selling point of a book or movie is 'based on true story.' Does that make the story better? Of course it doesn't. A good story is a good story. The reason I ask you if Fast Machine is autobiographical fiction is that I am curious about the way these pieces stand alone, yet begin to build a character that extends from story to story. The character shares your name and (I'm supposing) certain life events. And if this character isn't based on you, I've got to know your secret for bringing her to life in this fascinating, multi-story way, without letting any particular story (no matter how few words) appear sleight or non-substantial. And if she is based on you, I'm wondering about your process for choosing snippets of your life to fictionalize and how you so effectively bring them to life despite their abstracted nature.
Elizabeth Ellen:
And if she is based on you, I'm wondering about your process for choosing snippets of your life to fictionalize and how you so effectively bring them to life despite their abstracted nature.
Thank you. I don't know . . . I think, honestly, you probably start to 'think like a writer,' to view interactions/events 'as a writer,' for better or worse. For instance, I knew the day 'it' happened, I would write the story that became "Lucky Woman" that is running in Harper's next month (and in my new collection Her Lesser Work). I even joked with the person I was with at the time, the person who experienced the event with me, "Are you going to write about this or am I?" but I also knew, instinctively, thirty years earlier, even as I wasn't yet a 'writer', I would write one day a play about a Xmas Eve I was a part of then. And I finally did (Exit, Carefully, published by SF/LD Books this April).
I’ve even had interactions with other people in recent years in which I was asked (told): "You're not going to write about this, right?" and usually in that moment I believe I won't. But then trust is betrayed on both sides and it seems easier (less morally fraught) to write about (it/them).
I don’t know, I used to HATE reading about Arthur Miller and the Catch-22 guy (Heller?) writing about their families/women . . . I thought that was morally reprehensible.
Now I just see it as almost unavoidably part of them. Then writers get into discussions about how well you 'disguise' the other people in your work. Like, if you disguise them 'well enough,' you can still be morally okay. An okay human being. But if you don't disguise them well enough, you're a monster.
Usually the person thinks everyone will know it's them, and 9/10 when I’ve asked casual readers, they have no clue who the character was based on.
I try, personally, not to look at the world in terms of morality, good and bad, because I think we can always make a case for other people being immoral while ignoring our own immorality, so what's the point?
I try to find what's interesting about 'real life' and add other interesting aspects to it in fiction.
Often I even forget what's real and what I made up.
Or I’ll think of a person as their 'character name' first. Before I remember their 'real name.'
Does this make me a psychopath?
Maybe.
What’s a psychopath?
What’s morality?
What’s fiction?
And just because you perfectly disguise a person so that no one else will ever know (who the character in your novel is based on) does not mean you still aren't hurting the person (who knows it's about him/her).
You can't make art, I guess, without hurting other people/yourself.
Wait. What was your question? :)
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